MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:

Project 2025 – you’ve probably heard about it. It is a roadmap from the Conservative Heritage Foundation for the next Republican president, and it has been a major talking point for Democrats on the campaign trail. Donald Trump, meanwhile, has tried to disavow it – tried to distance himself. Well, NPR White House correspondent Franco Ordoñez covers the Trump campaign. He’s with me now to dig in on the controversy. Hi, Franco.

FRANCO ORDOÑEZ, BYLINE: Hi, Mary Louise.

KELLY: Just go straight to the heart of Project 2025. What is this all about? Why is it so controversial?

ORDOÑEZ: It’s effectively a transition in waiting, run by some of Trump’s closest allies from his first presidency. And it really dates back to his disastrous first transition back in 2016. When he took office, he was widely criticized for being unprepared. Trump actually picked former New Jersey governor, Chris Christie, to make the plans. But Trump tossed all that work out when he was elected, and they really had to start from scratch.

KELLY: OK. So this is designed to avoid that scenario again – to actually have a plan, should he have a second term?

ORDOÑEZ: Exactly. His allies didn’t want that to happen again if he wins a second term, so they got to work. And they got to work well before even the primaries, drafting plans for the next, quote, “conservative president.” And I will note, to be clear, that’s exactly what they’ll say now. It’s for any conservative president. But all along, it was written with Trump in mind. They’ve told me he was the embodiment of the program or the movement. You know, and they pulled together a huge personnel database. They also compiled a list of executive orders that can be rolled out on Day 1.

But what folks have really found to be so controversial is this 900-page pro-Trump plan to overhaul the American government. And I got a copy here. Boom.

(SOUNDBITE OF THUD)

KELLY: It’s 900 pages – yep.

ORDOÑEZ: It’s really a wish list of conservative policies that Trump would be able to choose from. It calls for mass deportations, eliminating the Department of Education, stricter controls on abortion and slashing climate protection.

KELLY: All of which would be controversial and worthy of conversation. It’s so interesting, though, because transition planning – unless you are a political reporter inside the beltway – usually would not capture this much attention.

ORDOÑEZ: Exactly.

KELLY: Is part of the reason this one has been so prominent that Democrats have spent so much time talking about it?

ORDOÑEZ: They have been talking about this for months – or at least working on this for months. They actually saw some online chatter in the spring and saw an opportunity to kind of tie this to Trump politically. They zeroed in on some of the most controversial parts that we’ve been talking about. I mean, it was a big part of the Democratic National Convention. Comedian Kenan Thompson even carried out a cartoon-size version of Project 2025 to make fun of Trump and the effort.

KELLY: Well, and Trump, as we said, keeps trying to distance himself. Why has that not worked?

ORDOÑEZ: Yeah. I mean, he said a few times that he knows nothing about it and that he disagrees with what’s inside it. I mean, he even touted the project’s demise when one of the main top editors stepped down. But really, the work was already done, and those involved are made up of loyalists and allies and former Trump officials. And look, even two years ago, Trump was at a Heritage event, and he told the group that their work was going to be essential going forward.

KELLY: So Trump keeps distancing himself. Has it worked? Are people buying it?

ORDOÑEZ: Well, I mean, it is true that this is not Trump’s plan, but it is a plan for Trump. I mean, one way I look at it is it’s taking Trump’s policy goals – the one he talks about on the stump all the time – and creates a legal roadmap to execute them.

But you are right that the denials – they didn’t seem to temper expectations. In fact, they seem to have fueled attention. You know, Democratic strategists argue that public awareness of Project 2025 has actually only increased in recent months as he’s been talking about it.

KELLY: Trump says this is not his plan, but he does have a plan. He’s actually named a transition team, right?

ORDOÑEZ: Yeah, he announced two chairs. They include Linda McMahon, a major donor and an executive who founded World Wrestling Entertainment with her husband. She was also in the administration. Howard Lutnick is the other. He’s chairman – or was chairman – of Cantor Fitzgerald, a financial services firm.

You know, it is notable that neither have ties to Project 2025. McMahon’s appointment, though, actually also adds emphasis to the work of another group, America First Policy Institute, that I am told is very involved in some of the transition work. She is on the board. But seeing how Heritage got on the wrong side of Trump, America First Policy Institute is being very careful not to do anything to antagonize Trump.

KELLY: NPR’s Franco Ordoñez – thank you.

ORDOÑEZ: Thank you so much.

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