SCOTT DETROW, HOST:

Over the past few weeks, I’ve been thinking a lot about a group of people I met last year in western Pennsylvania. For one, they live in a state where their vote will have an outsized importance this fall. And for another, they’re all around the same age of President Biden, who’s 81, and former President Trump, who’s 78, although they do stay quite active.

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UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: This is a little call-out dance that…

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: This is a call-out dance. It’s easy.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: Yeah. They’re going to call it out.

DETROW: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: Easy dance. Here we go.

DETROW: When we went to Pennsylvania last fall to talk to them about the presidential campaign, they first insisted that my producer, Connor Donevan, and I join them in some line dancing. And then after that, we talked about Biden and Trump’s ages and what that meant for the likely rematch that was coming in 2024. In the weeks since Biden’s disastrous performance in the presidential debate, as some high-profile Democrats are urging Biden to step aside, I have been wondering what those older voters up near Pittsburgh were thinking, how they viewed the debate, what they thought about Biden’s future and how much, if at all, their opinions on the campaign had changed. There were three people I really wanted to hear from – first, John Fuller, who was deeply frustrated at his choices and wasn’t quite sure who he’d vote for.

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JOHN FULLER: Advice to both – don’t run.

DETROW: Fuller punctuated the end of our voter roundtable with that memorable line. And when I called him up this week to catch up, he told me his view hasn’t changed.

Well, let me just start with this. If the election were right now, do you know which way you would go?

FULLER: It’s very difficult. It’s six in one hand and half a dozen in the other. My perspective is both have some common challenges, one being age. And President Biden, certainly from his last performance in the debate, has some cognitive and physical issues. On the other hand, former President Donald Trump had some legal issues in the court still remaining, as well as some character issues, and neither of these put me in a mind to vote for either of them. But if I had to choose, I would go with President Biden.

DETROW: Fuller, who turned 82 in May, said he watched the debate the other week, and he was discouraged, as he put it.

FULLER: What surprised me most was the difference between the performance of President Biden for the State of the Union address and his performance for the debate in June, a total different person and certainly did not leave me with the feeling that he could function well as president of the United States for the next four years.

DETROW: Fuller says he has good days and bad and that maybe mentally, he could see himself in a tough job like Biden, running the country. But physically, he thinks at this age, it’s just too difficult.

Another thing I wanted to ask you is that when you’ve seen President Biden push back against those calls for him to step aside, he has said that this is coming from pundits. This is coming from people in D.C. and the coast. And he says that when you look at it, voters in swing states don’t want me to step aside. Black voters in particular don’t want me to step aside. You’re a Black man in a swing state, so I wanted to ask you what you thought about that argument from the president.

FULLER: I think at this point in time, President Biden should take a hard look and consider what’s best for the United States and not just what’s best for him. Put the pride aside. He’s had a productive political career. I think it’s time for him to take an exit from the political stage, take his bow. We appreciate what he’s done, the progress that has been made, but for me, it’s time for him to step aside.

DETROW: Is his age, at this point, the most important issue to you? What is the most important topic that you’re going to think about this election through?

FULLER: Physical performance. Physical and cognitive performance.

DETROW: The second person I wanted to talk to – Cathie Huber, one of the people I met at the line-dancing class at a Pittsburgh senior center. She was energetic that day, about Joe Biden but also about the dancing and the other activities she does to keep busy.

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CATHIE HUBER: I would put it this way. You’ve seen the ad where the gal says, my age is just a number.

DETROW: Yeah.

HUBER: And that’s the way I feel about it. I feel, at 80, I’m just as sharp as I ever was.

DETROW: In fact, it was hard to schedule a phone call between all of Huber’s classes. By the way, she’s 81 now. When we finally connected, Huber said that the debate was unfortunate, as she put it, but she’s still backing Biden, and she still thinks he could do the job.

HUBER: I’m just a couple of months younger than Biden. I still have all my marbles. I might be able to speak a little more forcefully than he does. But I think he’s got the experience, the background and the expertise to go on for a second term.

DETROW: Do you think he can win the election?

HUBER: I’m hoping so. I speak to many, many people about this, and they kind of feel that I do, that Trump’s biggest drawback is the fact that he is such a damn liar. He’s also a convicted felon.

DETROW: Huber would still back the Democrats if, as many people have theorized, Vice President Kamala Harris ended up topping the ticket. But it’s clear she’d be less enthusiastic.

HUBER: I would hope that if he stood aside for her, I would hope that she would have a very, very strong running mate, like Newsom, like Shapiro, like Buttigieg, somebody who is very much in the public eye and is obviously a very intelligent, informed person.

DETROW: And that leaves Len Zapler, the person I was most interested in hearing from. When we talked in the fall, he was the voter who best exemplified the path that Biden’s campaign sees to his reelection, a voter who does see real flaws in Biden.

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LEN ZAPLER: My chief worry is I’m losing it. And he’s on the verge of losing it, I think. So I wouldn’t want this guy out there running the show.

DETROW: But Zapier is also a lifelong Republican, who, the time we first talked, thought Trump was to untenable and plan to vote for Biden.

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ZAPLER: I hope he has a very stalwart and capable vice president. That’s what I would pray for.

DETROW: Ten months later, Len Zapler is now 86. And…

If the election were today and it’s Trump and Biden, who do you think you’d vote for?

ZAPLER: I’d have to go with Trump. I mean, I’m not happy about Trump. He’s sort of a jerk. It’s not presidential. But he gets stuff done, you know, and at least we know that his mental acuity is there.

DETROW: Zapler says as the election has gone on, his top concern has been Biden’s ability to do the job.

ZAPLER: The fact that he is losing it – that’s – you know, that’s the way the world works. You’re born. You grow up. You flourish. And then you begin to wither, and then you’re gone. And I think he’s on the withering end right now, a lot more than Trump.

DETROW: Zapler says swapping Biden for Harris would not bring him back into the fold. But what, I asked, about the initial reason he couldn’t vote for Trump, the attempt to overturn the 2020 election, the violence of January 6?

ZAPLER: Nobody should be messing with our Constitution. And that is bothersome. You’re right, and thanks for reminding me. This is a problem that I have with Trump. I don’t think that he’s going to get away with being a tyrant. You know, we still have our availability of dealing with somebody like that, and it’s not going to happen. I think he’d be OK for four years, and who knows?

DETROW: Yeah.

ZAPLER: I hope I’m right.

DETROW: Len Zapler, Cathie Huber and John Fuller – all around President Biden’s age and all residents of the key swing state of Pennsylvania.

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